Monday, July 21, 2008

What in the Hell...?



Surprised to learn that according to Pew Survey (on polling 35,000 people), while 74% of Americans believe in life after death, only 61% of Hindu's (in the US) believe in reincarnation.
A Pew study reports that 98 percent of Mormons believe in an afterlife, the top percentage in the U.S. The biggest believers in hell: evangelical and African American Protestants, and Muslims.
Evil is always a hot topic among people who study religion, and it's one of the big questions people always grapple with: 'If there's an all-powerful God, why is there a Holocaust?' " said Bart Ehrman, a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the author of "God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question — Why We Suffer.
Major organized religions fail to provide a convincing answer to this fundamental question. When we are well fed, well cared for, and are assured of food and shelter in the foreseeable future, it would be a breeze for us to preach things like "pain and pleasure are mere illusions" and "God loves all". I will believe in this illusion theory, if someone smashes his toe deliberately with a brick, and still manage to keep a smile on his face. For all practical purposes, this world is real, and reality can bite hard.

11 comments:

ShastriX said...

Gopa, regarding "If there's an all-powerful God, why is there a Holocaust?", Sri Ramakrishna had already answered it with one of His wonderful allusions:
~~~~~
There's poison in the snake, but the snake itself is unaffected by it.
~~~~~

The world of form is a creation of the Formless. To again quote Sri Ramakrishna:
~~~~~
God alone has become all this-māyā, the universe, living beings, and the twenty-four cosmic principles. 'As the snake I bite, and as the charmer I cure.' It is God Himself who has become both vidyā and avidyā. He remains deluded by the māyā of avidyā, ignorance. Again, with the help of the guru, He is cured by the māyā of vidyā, Knowledge.
~~~~~

The world of Form might appear to be riddled with imperfections, but that's to be expected of anything that's in the process of BEcomING like the BEING, the Formless. One doesn't condone (mass) murder, but i am quite confident that such acts are taken care of by the law of karma. Many Mansions has a wonderful chapter on this. In one instance, an arrogant king lays waste many people and, in one of his next lives, he has to undergo a most-painful cancer; the bloodshed on the battlefield is played out in his own body!

Gopa said...

Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation Raama. To me, reality = illusion makes sense.

However, at least for now, this is merely a thought in my brain. My question is, do we "act" any differently on internalizing this thought? We certainly would "react" differently to unforeseen and sudden changes with certain calmness, until we hit our plastic limit; when we are in severe pain, I think it is hard for the common folk to shrug it off as an illusion and start joking around (yogi's like Ramana are a few exceptions). But as far as our actions go, I think we all are programmed to maintain inertia - all living things strive to continue to live, within their comfort zones.

Reality = illusion doesn't prevent me from fleeting when I see a tiger in the forest. It certainly is not preventing almost all of us from planning for the future.

This being the case, for all practical purposes, isn't "reality = illusion" a moot point?

Gopa said...

Oh, I forgot clarify one thing. I am not saying that I don't believe in God; I do. But my belief has no rhyme or reason - it is a feeling/intuition.

My issue with some organized religions is, they try to rationalize their belief, and call it science.

In my opinion, though religion and science (our current level of understanding) are not contradictory, we don't have sufficient information to assert that there is God, based on conventional science.

Proposal that God exists is a dogma - not a hypothesis, not a theory.

ShastriX said...

Gopa, am reminded of that Telugu song: దేవుడనేవాడున్నాడా అని మనిషికి కలిగెను సందేహం :-)

Albert Einstein once said: "Reality is an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." However, someone observed that a better definition of maya is delusion (rather than illusion). We are deluded by the power of the great Old Mother into thinking that whatever's happening around us is real.

When they say Reality, the Hindus are referring to the Formless substratum of the Universe, because what is real just Is and is not subject to change. It's outside time. I would like to point you to this wonderful post of David Godman: Is the world real?

Internalizing this should help in looking at the world with a better detachment and not get too caught up in it. For instance, for a few years after Ramana attained Self-Realization, he wasn't at all interested in what was happening around him to the extent that someone commented to another that Ramana wouldn't be bothered even if one killed oneself in his presence. Atma-vichara, yes; atma-hatya vichara, nope ;-)

When it comes to running away from the tiger, i guess it's your choice which atman you listen to; there's also one inside. Of course, not every one could be a Shirdi Sai Baba, who subdued even a tiger (end of Chapter 31 in the Shri Sai Satcharita)!

sai said...

ala kasepu badukondi nayanalara

Gopa said...

నాయనా సాయీ, మేము కేవలం మా మనోభావాలను వ్యక్తపరుచుకొంటున్నాము, అంతేరా బాబూ:-)

Gopa said...

Raama, Thanks for the comment. I do believe in God, but not in the God in conventional sense (i.e., God with ego and desires - Who becomes happy when people pray to Him, and punish folks who upset Him).

I read the link Is the World Real. To me, whether the world is real or not is inconsequential. If the world is not real, what I believe in makes no difference to my Prarabhda - because, my thoughts are merely electrical signals generated due to biochemical reactions within this delusional world. That substratum thingie would continue to lie like a rug!

Now, what is the guarantee that the Realization some folks experience is not a delusion by itself? On what basis are we ruling out this possibility? After all, we are using rationalization to some extent in developing philosophies. Why not go the whole hog?

If the world is real, no problem at all - we are seeing it as is!

I say, live as if the world is real, try to see others suffering as our own, use lot of judgment, and keep moving on. The bottom line is, if someone throws a brick at us, we sure would duck. And even the greatest of Yogis need air and food to survive (my belief).

ShastriX said...

Gopa,

We should set the ground rules and see whether we are in sync with them. To me that list is quite small:

* We should be cheerful and blissful to the extent possible; we shouldn't let events ruffle us too much.

I would say that the world is real only due to the presence of the Great Infinite Spirit in the background, Who's created it in sport. Have blogged more of my thoughts on this at Is the Universe a Dream of God?

So we should learn to play by the rules of this sport. The primary thing (for me) is not to get too entangled in the game. As they say, Be in the World, but not of it.

Do whatever (meditation, nama-smarana, etc.) that works. All this is preparation; the Grace still has to flow from the GIS.

When the Grace descends, It will be quite evident. There'll be no confusion, certainly it will not be a delusion.

This is what i firmly believe in, though i am not be able to stick to this approach always. Thankfully, Life is analog and not digital. If it's between one-sigma (70%) and two-sigma (95%) now, i would be very happy (pun intended) to move it to three-sigma (99.5%). At the last level, i am sure that we would find the truth of that observation by Sri Ramakrishna: "There's nothing in the world except God".

Captcha: bores!

Gopa said...

Thanks for the nice response Raama. You have a very good road map - we all need one. If we don't know where we want to go, how do we get there?!

The part that I can't comprehend (in what you said) is: "When the Grace descends, It will be quite evident. There'll be no confusion, certainly it will not be a delusion."

How can we be sure? A deluded person would never believe that he is in delusion. Otherwise, delusion loses its meaning.

ShastriX said...

Thanks, Gopa.

Let's talk of ourselves. As per the definition of Sri Ramakrishna, both of us are mediocre devotees (we feel that God is within us). We have a reasonably clear understanding of right and wrong.

I do not fool myself when i know when i have "missed the mark" and, if i may say so, i feel you are also like that. With this background, i feel that we'll know for sure when grace descends on us. There will be no denying the Bliss that we will be XPing when that happens and certainly It'll be no delusion.

From WYSIWYG:
~~~~~
The test of a true vision is this: It leaves a lasting spiritual impression on the mind that generates awareness and bliss.
~~~~~

Captcha: denti

Gopa said...

Thanks Raama. I certain hope that It descends on us and we get to know it for sure. Thanks for the link to that nice WYSIWYG.